Curse

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2011, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Just so we can get back to discussing Intensity in the Intensity thread, despite the fact that esoteric calculations are pointless especially if they don't match practice ...

Quote:

Ultimately
Mark of Pain has the higher damage potential that is harder to execute consistently.
Searing Flames will more easily do a steadier stream of damage.

Mark of Pain damage is front loaded.
Searing Flames has the win for extended fights.

Mark of Pain uses all 3 PvE skills, with 3 open slots left over.
Searing Flames uses 1 PvE skill (Elemental Lord) with 4 open slots left over, 2 of which can be PvE skills.

and last but not least:

Mark of Pain massively surpasses Searing Flames with "Manlyway" (or whatever you want to call it) or other "XWay" teams.
Elementalists will likely never have this damage potential, as I don't think it's supposed to exist in the first place since it is the combination of 3 very fragile key builds. However, your place in "XWay" is still secure through E/Mo bondfusing. There are threads over on the Monk forums to discuss that. :P

Your calculations are completely inadequate.

You assumed you only cast Searing Flames. You cannot do that without running out of energy. You can't cast Glowing Gaze and GoLE without biting into your window to cast Searing Flames either.

Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support does, as you put it, 466.5 damage over 15 seconds not 31 damage over 10 seconds.

Monsters die, but EBVAS / FH / YMLAD damage is largely unaffected (a dead monster after the Sin uses Iron Palm = less damage from EBVAS). But it dramatically decreases SF damage.

MoP damage is far more spiky and therefore considerably more powerful. The ability to output damage really fast really quickly means you are overwhelming the monster's healers. Searing Flames is not more powerful over an extended fight, in fact it is less powerful. Try pressuring out mobs with competent healers with Searing Flames and see for yourself. Heck try to kill the Master of Healing with Searing Flames and see what happens. AP's ability to quickly spike out the healers is a major advantage.

Searing Flames bars have little room to use PvE skills, especially the more powerful ones like YMLAD and FH, because they destroy their energy if they do. Their energy is already tight enough. Saying that SF bars have 2 free slots for PvE skills is overstating it.

MoP does not run into blocking issues because of Rigor Mortis.

SF is just as vulnerable to disruption as AP. I think it's incredible that you think it any way else, enough so that I suspect you either have not used AP or are using it wrong. For every thing you can think of that can possibly disrupt AP, I'll name you one that can disrupt SF. The only skill that really hurts AP is Hex Breaker, but what the hell, the same can be said of Amour of Frost vs. Searing Flames and besides, even with AP, Hex Breaker can be played around.

Here're your corrected calculations:

([(42xE)x5]+([(42xE)x[(.6x5)-1]]+(466.5*3*2/3)+[(80)*2]+[(80)*3])/10=DPS
*3 because there are 3 Sins on the battlefield, *2/3 because that's the correct scaling from 15s duration to 10s, *2 and *3 because YMLAD AND FH will be used more than once in 10 seconds, and we still haven't counted Deep Wound
(1050+420+933+160+240)/10=DPS
2803/10=DPS
280.3=DPS

Quote:

In summation, Searing Flames, despite the HM disadvantage, is still a great option for dealing superior damage as an Elementalist. It just isn't delivered as nukishly and up front as MoP Bomb. Half the damage is invisible even. The numbers show it, so go use it. I think you'll be surprised.

I have tried it. It doesn't work nearly as well as AP. I'd only use it in 16-man areas (Unwaking Waters, Vizunah Square at a stretch, etc) or in areas with underwhelming armour vs. Fire (Secret Lair of Snowmen, etc). Have you tried Searing Flames actually, vs. the mobs in Slaver's HM for example?

HigherMinion · Feb 20, 2011, 11:36 AM // 11:36

In your MoP calculations; how have you shown how many foes were hit?

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 20, 2011, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Yea, net increase of .5 seconds per cast of Searing Flames. It's hardly an issue. Besides, in my calculations, Searing Flames was cast every 3 seconds, not every 2.

I'll add Rigor Mortis into the MoP calculations if you want. (P.S.: It's only going to drop dps)

And yes, MoP damage is "spikier" and I have already agreed on this point. This is balanced by the fact that mobs must attend to the stronger overall dps and multiple condition removals to deal with it. I will still, however, give you the edge since spiky damage is preferred in PvE.

Between Elemental Lord, Fire Attunement, Glowing Gaze, Glyph of Lesser Energy, and a 40/40 set, you should have plenty of energy left over for PvE skills.

What part of a 2 second recharge (Searing Flames) vs. a 60 second/30 second/20 second recharge (AP/EVAS/MoP) makes you think that the former is effected less by disruption? What about Blind/Hex Removal/Stupid AI? Searing Flames doesn't have to worry about any of that. MoP Bomb is much more effected by disruption than Searing Flames in both the number of things that can disrupt it and the magnitude of which it'll be effected.

"We will assume the spike can be done every 10 seconds from the most Pro GW Player (totally me, btw) with everything going perfectly."
"YMLAD!" and "FH!" are used once every 10 seconds. How are you spamming them faster if AP isn't recharging them?
Move the EVAS DPS outside of the divider, and multiply by 1.5, the total number that will be up at any given time due to the 10 second AP recharge.

(([(42xE)x5]+([(42xE)x[(.6x5)-1]]+[(80)]+[(80)])/10)+(31x1.5)=DPS
[(1050+420+80+80)/10]+46.5=DPS
209.5=DPS

You we're right to catch my mistake of placing the EVA inside the time frame multiplier, so let's add your Deep Wound, which I also forgot.

(([(42xE)x5]+([(42xE)x[(.6x5)-1]]+(80+100)+(80))/10)+(31x1.5)=DPS
[(1050+420+180+80)/10]+46.5=DPS
219.5=DPS

Your next post will tell me that the spike can be done much faster, but in that case, I'd have to tell you that the 6 enemies you had balled up probably won't be back in position, so you lose a large portion of the x5 multiplier. At this point, we can instead jump down to your AP+YMLAD+FH+EVA example to take out each foe individually, which is, assuming a spike every 5 seconds:

([80+80]/5) + (31x3) = DPS
(YMLAD+FH/SpikeRecharge) + (EVA DPS x Number of EVA) = DPS
125 = DPS

Oh, I forgot Deep Wound...

([80+80+100]/5) + (31x3) = DPS
([YMLAD+FH+Deep Wound 100 Damage Max]/SpikeRecharge) + (EVA DPS x Number of EVA) = DPS
143 = DPS

So anything after the first spike is going to drop your DPS to 143.

You have 10 seconds for the first spike, then you drop to 143 afterwards for every 5 seconds you remain fighting. I don't even have to do math here. After the first 5 seconds after the spike (15 seconds into the fight), your DPS drops to 181, which is below Searing Flames.

But let's say you do get the mobs balled up again, but this time only 4 are in a ball cuz we're hasty, so that means 3 are effected by MoP:

(([(42x3)x5]+([(42x3)x[(.6x5)-1]]+(80+100)+(80))/10)+(31x1.5)=DPS
[(630+252+180+80)/10]+46.5=DPS
160.7=DPS

We'll that's a little better.

You have 10 seconds for the first spike, then 10 seconds for a second spike, which means you average 190.1DPS. Still less than Searing Flames. Even if I chopped off the extra 5 seconds that the mobs run (because they are probably dead after 2 spikes), you get 199.3DPS. That puts you at 3DPS less than Searing Flames, but we'll call it even it's so close.

Let's not forget that I am COMPLETELY ignoring aftercast for the MoP spike and continuing to allow 2 spear chucks by the player.

And yes, I have used nearly everything you can think of in Slaver's since much of my (PvE) playtime has been with myself and a single bud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

If you take into account the fact that you need cracked armor (which is in adjacent range only, due to Weaken armor), Searing flames is almost adjacent range, because stuff without cracked armor isn't going to be hit for anywhere close to full damage.

Trying to spam searing flames without an attunement is like smacking yourself with a trout. (bad analogy but yeh) 15energy every 2 seconds is outright impossible and glyph of lesser energy is on 30 cooldown, so your only energy management option is Glowing Gaze which returns +6 net every 8 seconds at 12+ energy storage. I'm amazed you even suggested that. With no attunement it might as well be 8 recharge like Rodgort's Invocation or 7 like Fireball, which means all you'll be doing is maintaining burning...even with Ebon vanguard standard of wisdom (for Glowing Gaze) you will be hard pressed to cast Searing flames more often than every 5 seconds (if you count the 40/40 set activating every time).

Why do interrupts matter? D-shot = no Searing flames for 20s, as is Power Lock, Magebane shot or any other such skills. Any other interrupt puts you down 15 energy since interrupted spells don't get attunement energy return.

I'll give you the cracked armor point, but any hero with it on is spamming it on recharge (5 seconds). It'll drop DPS, but only a portion of it since a large chunk is burning damage. By the time you are cranking out the Fire Damage, most of the mobs will be covered. Besides, if they like to ball up for MoP, isn't it fair to say they will ball the same, if only for a moment, to have cracked armor applied across a large portion of them?

Searing Flames only need be cast every 7 seconds to maintain a large portion of the DPS.

Any of the interupts you mentioned also extend the duration of MoP spike downtime even further. May as well not count em for either side. Yes, the Ele will lose some energy when hit with the occasional interrupt. Due to the large pool of energy allowing a longer time before OoM, you can make up for it. In areas will large amounts of interrupts, the Ele need only successfully cast every 7 seconds, where the Necro is going to run into large DPS issues.

@HigherMinion: Yes, we are.

Also, let's put my original post here so people have a basis:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Searing Flames is 14 DPS per target hit in burning damage alone. Searing Flames hits for 50 damage on a 100AL target at 15 Fire Mastery. It hits for 71 if they have Cracked Armor at the same mastery.
Searing Flames DPS where E is the number of enemies hit:
Without cracked armor:
(14xE)+([50xE]/3)=DPS, where 3 is the number of seconds it takes to recast.
With cracked armor:
(14xE)+([71xE]/3)=DPS, where 3 is the number of seconds it takes to recast.

Assuming 5 enemies are hit, which is pretty fair for the generous AoE it has:
Without cracked armor:
(14x5)+([50x5]/3)=(70)+(250/3)=153DPS
With cracked armor:
(14x5)+([71x5]/3)=(70)+(355/3)=188DPS

Keep in mind, that is @15 Fire Mastery, which should probably be closer to 17 given the nature of Elemental Lord. I also excluded Intensity for this calculation. Furthermore, an ele can apply approximately this pressure, unconditionally, indefinitely, with much greater ease than the following scenario:

Mark of Pain is slightly more difficult to calculate:
Mark of Pain: A damage of 42 to all adjacent @16 curses excluding the target being hit.
Ebon Vanguard Assassin: ~638 (average) damage over it's 15 second lifespan (assuming max rank) for an average of 42 DPS on a 60AL target. A 100AL target will cut this damage in half, excluding the Armor Ignoring bit (~295 Damage). The new damage rate is 466.5 damage (([638-295]/2)+295) over 15 seconds or 31 DPS. It strikes approximately 1 time per second.
"Finish Him!": A damage of 80 (assuming max rank) every 15 seconds (no Assassin's Promise, we'll get to that in a sec). 5.3 DPS.
"You Move Like A Dwarf!": A damage of 80 every 10 seconds (no AP, one sec, etc). 8 DPS.

First, I will calculate damage without AP, then I will estimate AP damage to the best of my ability (since it is dependent on the rate in which the main target is killed as well as scatter response).

MoP Chain without AP (30 sec recharge on EVA):
([(42xE)x?]+([(42xE)x(.6x?)]+(31/2)+[(80)x2]+[(80)x3])/30=DPS
([MoP Damage x Number of Enemies Hit]x? Seconds before Scatter @ 1 hit per second from EVA) + ([MoP Damage x Number of Enemies Hit]x.6hits per second with a spear x number of seconds before scatter) + EVA Damage/2 since its alive 15 seconds + FH Damage x 2 (in 30 sec) + YMLAD Damage x 3 (in 30 sec) all / 30 seconds=DPS

We will say 5 enemies are hit, and they scatter after 5 seconds (which we will use next). I believe these numbers are more than generous. Let me know if you do not agree with them. Remember, this is standard HM PvE, not Manlyway (or whatever you want to call it using whatever variant). This is a 1v1 comparison of the Ele and Necro.

([(42xE)x5]+([(42xE)x(.6x5)]+(31/2)+[(80)x2]+[(80)x3])/30=DPS
(1050+630+15.5+160+240)/30=DPS
2095.5/30=DPS
69.85=DPS

A DPS of 70 if the spike is done every 30 seconds, the most it can be done without AP due to EVA. Now, with Assassin's Promise:

We will assume the spike can be done every 10 seconds from the most Pro GW Player (totally me, btw) with everything going perfectly. I am highballing the crap out of this build. That's 5 seconds before scatter, 2 more seconds to kill your primary target, 3 more seconds to cast everything (AP, MoP, EVA), all while the monsters have grouped back up after they ran 5 seconds ago. We will also assume you are somehow hitting 5 targets again because, once again, we are assuming perfect conditions.

The changes next to the downtime are that AP takes 1 second to cast. This is 1 less attack you can make as the spear chucker for additional damage. You will also only get 1 cast of YMLAD and FH per spike (every 10 seconds). I have indicated the changes in bold.

([(42xE)x5]+([(42xE)x[(.6x5)-1]]+(31/2)+[(80)]+[(80)])/10=DPS
(1050+420+15.5+80+80)/10=DPS
1645.5/10=DPS
164.5=DPS

If you want to add the extra one or two EVAS that will be running around, add ~40 DPS. It is unlikely they will be attacking your MoP target.

IN SUMMARY:
Searing Flames @15 spec: 153 DPS
Searing Flames @15 spec /w Cracked Armor: 188 DPS
Mark of Pain @16 spec (etc): 70 DPS
Mark of Pain @16 spec (etc) /w AP: 164 DPS

All of the numbers are there for you to review. I even tested variables out on the Master of Damage and 100/60 AL targets. However, I am not a math wiz, so it is very likely (cough certain cough) these numbers will vary with actual gameplay. These are just some base numbers. Remember, these numbers are with Searing Flames alone. There's still plenty of leftover time in the rotation to add more damage. MoP doesn't have that.

Ultimately
Mark of Pain has the higher damage potential that is harder to execute consistently.
Searing Flames will more easily do a steadier stream of damage.

Mark of Pain damage is front loaded.
Searing Flames has the win for extended fights.

Mark of Pain uses all 3 PvE skills, with 3 open slots left over.
Searing Flames uses 1 PvE skill (Elemental Lord) with 4 open slots left over, 2 of which can be PvE skills.

and last but not least:

Mark of Pain massively surpasses Searing Flames with "Manlyway" (or whatever you want to call it) or other "XWay" teams.
Elementalists will likely never have this damage potential, as I don't think it's supposed to exist in the first place since it is the combination of 3 very fragile key builds. However, your place in "XWay" is still secure through E/Mo bondfusing. There are threads over on the Monk forums to discuss that. :P

@Jeydra:
I elaborated on my previous numbers in the post here. I hope they better explain what I was talking about in regards to certain skill DPS.

Your post definitely contains many important variables.
Glyph of Lesser and Glowing Gaze can be cast in between Searing Flames, so they don't effect DPS too much. I also decided scatter was a smaller issue for Searing Flames, given the broad area of the attack and the general pattern that enemies scatter in, not to mention how difficult it is to calculate that as a consistent number. There are fewer things that can be done to interrupt Searing Flames DPS (interrupts, removals, etc) when compared to MoP and AP. Even when these things do happen, they impact the overall DPS of Searing Flames less. MoP has a major advantage against rangers that I didn't account for (however, they often have stances, which means MoP can run into blocking issues as well).

TBH, I would use the last skill as Intensity for Rodgort's Invocation (don't forget to pre-glyph to improve DPS) or EBSoH for more damage and more team damage (can't forget about them). Also, it's a little more gimmicky (and noobish I admit) but I still find it entertaining from The Spearmen days; Pair Searing Flames with Arcane Echo and drop Rodgort's all together (replace with EBSoH).

@all:
In summation, Searing Flames, despite the HM disadvantage, is still a great option for dealing superior damage as an Elementalist. It just isn't delivered as nukishly and up front as MoP Bomb. Half the damage is invisible even. The numbers show it, so go use it. I think you'll be surprised.

Edit:
Did some more math with Searing Flames @ 17 spec with Glowing Gaze added (which is more practical):
Searing Flames @17 Spec: 162.1 DPS
Searing Flames @17 Spec /w Cracked Armor: 202.2 DPS

For anyone that cares.

Bristlebane · Feb 20, 2011, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I'm sure someone already pointed it out, but since I don't see it in this thread..

Rodgort's Invocation can be pushed up to 20 Fire easily, causing 155..78 dmg to nearby foes vs 60..100AL. Now since Intensity is armor ignoring, that would be up to 232..155 total dmg to nearby foes. 155 AE to all nearby 100AL targets is huge, and if you can reduce the recharge (ie. Serpent's Q?), it could potentially be more favorable than using Searing Flames.. especially against non-burning foes that would cause exactly 0 dmg to both foes area nearby with Intensity, completely wasting it.

Lightning Orb/Hammer would cause similar dmg (at 18 air) to single targets but only 59 dmg to nearby using Intensity.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 20, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

I'm sure someone already pointed it out, but since I don't see it in this thread..

Rodgort's Invocation can be pushed up to 20 Fire easily, causing 155..78 dmg to nearby foes vs 60..100AL. Now since Intensity is armor ignoring, that would be up to 232..155 total dmg to nearby foes. 155 AE to all nearby 100AL targets is huge, and if you can reduce the recharge (ie. Serpent's Q?), it could potentially be more favorable than using Searing Flames.. especially against non-burning foes that would cause exactly 0 dmg to both foes area nearby with Intensity, completely wasting it.

Lightning Orb/Hammer would cause similar dmg (at 18 air) to single targets but only 59 dmg to nearby using Intensity.

This was mentioned in this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/i...0470270p5.html

Rodgort's is a huge candidate for Intensity abuse, since it is a strong single attack with strong AoE, and it is also in the Fire Mastery line and non-elite.

LifeInfusion · Feb 20, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

I'm sure someone already pointed it out, but since I don't see it in this thread..

Rodgort's Invocation can be pushed up to 20 Fire easily, causing 155..78 dmg to nearby foes vs 60..100AL. Now since Intensity is armor ignoring, that would be up to 232..155 total dmg to nearby foes. 155 AE to all nearby 100AL targets is huge, and if you can reduce the recharge (ie. Serpent's Q?), it could potentially be more favorable than using Searing Flames.. especially against non-burning foes that would cause exactly 0 dmg to both foes area nearby with Intensity, completely wasting it.

Lightning Orb/Hammer would cause similar dmg (at 18 air) to single targets but only 59 dmg to nearby using Intensity.

155 is Max. You won't see those numbers in practice even with cracked armor, but you will probably see 112-140 with [email protected] due to 25% armor penetration on 80-100 armor targets. I tested orb extensively in October since I ran Air magic (Chain Lightning + Lightning Orb) + AP back then. It's somewhere in the Elementalist forum. (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...60&postcount=7 ,http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=13 , http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...1&postcount=14, http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=31, http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=59 for starters)

On mobs that take less than listed damage from Orb (94 or 106 depending on 14 or 16 air), there's no hope for Rodgort's Invocation + Cracked armor.

Also Rodgort's needs Mind Blast or Ele attunement, unless you plan to AP Glyph of Lesser energy to get it below 10-11sec recharge or spam Rodgort's->Glowing Gaze and still not break even.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 20, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

When not Intensified, Rodgort's is nearly pointless to cast when you have Searing Flames on your bar. It is however, a pretty strong opener:

At 17 Fire Mastery, Rodgort's will hit for 95 Damage. With Intensity, it will hit for 144 AoE, with 95 on the target in addition to setting everything on fire for another 42 damage over 3 seconds.

I'd consider it worthy of being brought.

ll BLADEZ ll · Feb 20, 2011, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Iv been running Invoke lightning with intensity, along with serpents quickness to it has a 6 sec recharge. It works well with intensity.

UnChosen · Feb 21, 2011, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Seriously...what we should do is have a HM H/h vanquishing contest.

Number crunching rarely holds up in the game due to way too many factors that wasn't foreseen.

Other classes have many ways to synergize with each other to do amazing damage (and still support at the same time). A Searing Flames ele bar have an entire bar devoted to spamming one skill and does nothing to benefit the team. Pure damage builds doesn't hold up as well in a non "tank-n-spank" scenario because the moment you're attacked and forced to kite, your damage immediately drops to zero.

This is the reason why all of the cookie cutter H/h builds like Discordway/Spiritway/Sabway/Racway ALL have hybrid characters...because if one hero gets attacked that hero can still support while another hero can pick up doing the damage.

The fact of the matter is...I've never managed to get an "elementalist way" that performs better than a "-way" build composed of non-monk classes. It just NEVER works out the way it looks on paper.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 21, 2011, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Wait, you kite in PvE? :P

So, from what I'm understanding, Elementalists should have damage greater than MoP on a Physway team and the ability to maintain utility? Run a Paragon with "They're on Fire!". There. Utility. Synergy. Now seriously, Elementalists can't be great at both. Generally when your damage goes up, other things need be sacrificed.

I think you're spot on with the "team player" aspect. The lack of synergy in Elementalist skills needs to be addressed much more than their damage.

LifeInfusion · Feb 21, 2011, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Wait, you kite in PvE? :P

So, from what I'm understanding, Elementalists should have damage greater than MoP on a Physway team and the ability to maintain utility? Run a Paragon with "They're on Fire!". There. Utility. Synergy. Now seriously, Elementalists can't be great at both. Generally when your damage goes up, other things need be sacrificed.

I think you're spot on with the "team player" aspect. The lack of synergy in Elementalist skills needs to be addressed much more than their damage.

sacrificing half your skillbar and a high spec in all useful attribute lines is a pretty big thing.

12+1+3 fire, 11+1 energy, 6 in whatever or 12+1+3 fire, 9+1 energy, 9 whatever

you need 10-12 energy storage for glowing gaze, 2 slots for energy management (fire attune+GOLE), 1 more for cover enchant (aura of restor).

sf, gg, gole, attune, aor = 4 slots.

+1 slot for meteor for a semi-decent KD

What useful thing can you bring with 9 spec that doesn't need to be cast often (to be used with GoLE)? Aegis, Protective was Kaolai, Pure was Li Ming maybe, Mirror of disenchantment (vs aegis from mobs and mass dervishes), balanced stance (lol)+ shields up! (not really since 10 energy), enfeebling blood, rip enchant, weaken armor, EBSOH/EBSOW, Ward of stability, Shroud of Distress, dark escape, death's retreat, signet of malice, dash, power drain/leech signet, warmonger's weapon/weapon of shadow/sundering weapon, conviction (-2 conditions), Mystic Regen,Armor of Sanctity (why?),Featherfoot Grace (easier to use Flame djinn's haste),Veil of Thorns/Harrier's Grasp (not really), Fall Back/Stand your ground, Never give up, make haste,etc. All these skills take time/energy from searing flames.

It's a 2007 flashback:
http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...synergyone.php

Quote:

Fire Attunement, Aura of Restoration, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, Liquid Flame, Meteor, Resurrection Signet

The only reason to run Searing flames (a least in normal mode) is because heroes can't use MoP properly or any form of PvE skills.

UnChosen · Feb 21, 2011, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Wait, you kite in PvE? :P

So, from what I'm understanding, Elementalists should have damage greater than MoP on a Physway team and the ability to maintain utility? Run a Paragon with "They're on Fire!". There. Utility. Synergy. Now seriously, Elementalists can't be great at both. Generally when your damage goes up, other things need be sacrificed.

I think you're spot on with the "team player" aspect. The lack of synergy in Elementalist skills needs to be addressed much more than their damage.

I rather Elementalists keep having no utilities in exchange for higher damage. Eles can't compete with "infinite energy" (Necro), Massive damage + Interrupt + Blind + Semi-tank (Rits spirit spam), or Fast Cast AoE armor ignoring damage + interrupt + Blind (Mesmers)....when it comes to having hybrid utilities and damage builds.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 21, 2011, 05:41 AM // 05:41

@ LifeInfusion: Not following your point.

Why do Elementalists think they should get the highest damage with utility as well?

Btw, Searing Flames, when cast immediately upon recharge, takes about 9 pips of energy to maintain forever under Fire Attunement and Ele Lord. Glowing Gaze, cast upon recharge, is nearly 3 pips and it's easily 3 with a 40/40 set. Glyph of Lesser Energy, when used with Searing Flames, is worth 3 Pips. That's +1 total. As long as there is a moment in between mobs, energy should be fine.

If you're still worried, run Air of Superiority with whatever support skill you need. Honestly though, may as well just run more damage instead of trying to be some kind of hybrid. Ele's just don't do it well.

Edit: Besides, is there something wrong with supporting a 200 DPS skill?

Kunder · Feb 21, 2011, 06:01 AM // 06:01

So guys, I heard HM mobs have 120-140 armor? Whats up with that anyway?

pingu666 · Feb 21, 2011, 06:03 AM // 06:03

not completing casts as the target died was my main source of energy wastage when playing my ele, the attunement didnt (doesnt?) give the energy return on a failed cast

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 21, 2011, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

So guys, I heard HM mobs have 120-140 armor? Whats up with that anyway?

So Kunder, I heard you keep casting on Warriors and Paragons.

@Pingu:
Valid point. I could see that being a huge issue. Maybe try to rotate to a healthier nearby target if you are using AoE?

Essence Snow · Feb 21, 2011, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@ LifeInfusion: Not following your point.

Why do Elementalists think they should get the highest damage with utility as well?

Btw, Searing Flames, when cast immediately upon recharge, takes about 9 pips of energy to maintain forever under Fire Attunement and Ele Lord. Glowing Gaze, cast upon recharge, is nearly 3 pips and it's easily 3 with a 40/40 set. Glyph of Lesser Energy, when used with Searing Flames, is worth 3 Pips. That's +1 total. As long as there is a moment in between mobs, energy should be fine.

Edit: Besides, is there something wrong with supporting a 200 DPS skill?

That's 4 skills to support 1, so 5/8 skills going for oh lets say with your math 240dps (added in gg)....Thats if all the right conditions are met...cracked armor, no interrupts, not immune to burning, no added armor vs fire, no condition removal, and no enchant stripping.

As for not casting on wars and paras.....I was unaware that you could skip those.

All this in conjunction with having to cast all those support skills, makes eles mediocre for dmg at best. Ever notice the ele if always lagging behind with the mm (if there is one). By the time they get to a mob, they usually only get 1 or 2 casts in on the war or para (b/c the monk and other casters are already dead).

Trying to justify eles as decent dmg dealers is somewhat of a feeble attempt. By now it is common knowledge that they are lacking in HM. You'll be hard-pressed to try and convince us that the world is flat, when we all know it is round.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 21, 2011, 08:08 AM // 08:08

It's a 200 DPS skill. Why NOT spend 4 skills to support it? Mark of Pain is supported by Assassin's Promise, EVA, YMLAD, and FH. What's your point? (And yes, YMLAD and FH are necessary to support AP, which is support for MoP.)

I'll spell this out one at a time:
Cracked Armor: If enemies ball for Mark of Pain, it's safe to say they ball for Weaken Armor. They have the same range. It's got a 5 second recharge. You can cover a MoB quite quickly.
Interrupts: You interrupted a skill that does 35ish percent of it's damage through burning that recharges in 2 seconds. What did you accomplish here? Let AP or MoP get interrupted. I can assure you the effects are much more devastating.
Immune to Burning: Destroyers and... Ruby Djinn? Both of these are in very select areas of the game. I'd say Hex Breaker does about the same for MoP Bomb. Regardless, you don't run MoP Bomb vs Hex Breaker and you don't run SF against Destroyers.
Added Armor vs. Fire: Rangers. Just as big of an issue for MoP via stances. Rigor Mortis takes from DPS.
Condition Removal: Extinguish and Cautery Signet. Anything else is going to be too slow. See also: 2 second recharge time.
Enchant Stripping: Still able to maintain about 100 Dps. Also, where is your Aegis? And no, blowing through 2 covers isn't common.

Why are you focusing on Warriors? You should be aiming for the group of casters. Any Warriors that run by are merely a stroke of good luck.

Yea, all the support skills that can be cast in between every 4 fights. I don't know what you are putting on your Ele heroes, but mine never lag behind.

Finally, I'm not saying the world is flat. I'm telling a bunch of non-believers the world is round. You are clearly nitpicking the bottom of the barrel. Where is your math? You seemed just fine insulting mine. Quit trying to compare yourself to Mark of Pain and you'll realize Ele's aren't too bad.

UnChosen · Feb 21, 2011, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

That's 4 skills to support 1, so 5/8 skills going for oh lets say with your math 240dps (added in gg)....Thats if all the right conditions are met...cracked armor, no interrupts, not immune to burning, no added armor vs fire, no condition removal, and no enchant stripping.

And no mobs targeting you. A major advantage of necro/mesmer/rits is that they just need to get off their hex/minions/spirits and then they could run around in circles without affecting their DPS. Mesmer hexes are almost never interrupted because of fast casting. Ritualist spirits cannot be interrupted by a lot of mesmer spells and could be summoned before engaging. Physicals have the advantage of higher armor and not having to worry about getting hit as much.

Its funny how some people always say stuff like "Bring BuH!", "Bring Intensity!", "Bring Elemental Lord", "Bring Weaken Armor", "Bring EBSoH", "Bring Mindbender"....but then fail to include the time to cast those skills into their DPS "calculations"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

It's a 200 DPS skill. Why NOT spend 4 skills to support it?

You make 200 sound like some grand number....its not. 200 DPS for hitting 5 targets and having the perfect scenario isn't that amazing. That 200 DPS is for hitting all 5 targets evenly until they die, without any other people on your team doing anything....which almost never happens.

You can't just count the full duration of burning on 5 targets as DPS...what if someone else on the team spike a target down in 2 seconds (Before you cast your second SF)? Then your searing flames just did 28/3s = 9.33 DPS on that target...

Now you cast your second Searing Flames and the second after that a random minion exploded and killed 2 targets:

-5 seconds since the first cast, 4 second burning total
[112 + (14*4)]/5 = 33.6 DPS on those 2 dead targets

While you're casting your third Searing Flames, Someone else's EVAS killed 1 more target:

-6 seconds since the first cast, 5 second burning total
[112 + (14*5)]/6 = 30.33 on that target

Now you cast your third Searing Flames, which killed the last target:

-7 seconds since the first cast, 6 second burning total
[112 + 112 + (14*6)]/7 = 44 DPS on that target

In reality the total DPS is 9.33 + (2*33.6) + 30.33 + 44 = 150.86 DPS

Doesn't seem nearly as impressive now when physicals can do ~120DPS without balling and casting 5 support skills. Not to mention I'm using 17 Fire Magic hitting 60al targets for this calculation...

In contrast, MoP is less affected because it doesn't rely on casting 3 times in 8 second burning to reach its full potential. The more physical triggers you can pack into a short amount of time, the higher the DPS.

In PvE, constant DPS over a long time is totally irrelevant because most battle are extremely short with 20 seconds of walking in between. Realistic calculation of DPS should be:

Damage to a target / Time it took for that target to die

Jeydra · Feb 21, 2011, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Two simple inaccuracies here I'm surprised nobody noticed.

Quote:

What part of a 2 second recharge (Searing Flames) vs. a 60 second/30 second/20 second recharge (AP/EVAS/MoP) makes you think that the former is effected less by disruption?

AP does not have 60s recharge.

Quote:

Valid point. I could see that being a huge issue. Maybe try to rotate to a healthier nearby target if you are using AoE?

Almost all AoE spells (certainly SF is one of them) will finish casting even if the target dies.

Other funky things nobody pointed out:

Quote:

(([(42xE)x5]+([(42xE)x[(.6x5)-1]]+(80+100)+(80))/10)+(31x1.5)=DPS
[(1050+420+180+80)/10]+46.5=DPS
219.5=DPS

So AP / MoP does 219.5 DPS you agree, and Searing Flames does 188 DPS after an ally casting Cracked Armour, we can conclude that AP / MoP does more DPS than Searing Flames. So we're done. Aren't we? And yet we continue discussing ...

Even more funky, there's a calc that says "so anything after the first spike is going to drop your DPS to 143." So what? What is Searing Flame's DPS after the enemies start scattering? If you assume AP / MoP is hitting only one target, then you also have to assume that Searing Flames is hitting at most two targets. What is its DPS then?

AP will trigger every 10s (in fact it should trigger far more often than once every 10s) if you're getting a huge MoP bomb on 5 targets at the start of a fight.

By the way after the initial spike what should happen is that monsters are low enough that they all die to YMLAD + FH, which is 80 + 80 + 100 (YMLAD, FH and Deep Wound) every 1.5s (the time taken to cast AP). 260 / 1.5 = 173.33 DPS. AP bars can keep this DPS up indefinitely until all monsters are dead. SF bars will watch their damage plummet. There is / should be no second spike (what ...).

Yes you kite in PvE because standing in Savannah Heat is stupid.

Quote:

Btw, Searing Flames, when cast immediately upon recharge, takes about 9 pips of energy to maintain forever under Fire Attunement and Ele Lord. Glowing Gaze, cast upon recharge, is nearly 3 pips and it's easily 3 with a 40/40 set. Glyph of Lesser Energy, when used with Searing Flames, is worth 3 Pips. That's +1 total. As long as there is a moment in between mobs, energy should be fine.

If you're casting with 40/40 set then Searing Flames, when cast immediately on recharge, will cost more than 9 pips of energy. It will also do more damage, yes. But it'll also cost more energy. And your post shows how much of a knife-edge Searing Flames bars are on. Where are you going to get energy to cast PvE skills now?

Quote:

Cracked Armor: If enemies ball for Mark of Pain, it's safe to say they ball for Weaken Armor. They have the same range. It's got a 5 second recharge. You can cover a MoB quite quickly.
Interrupts: You interrupted a skill that does 35ish percent of it's damage through burning that recharges in 2 seconds. What did you accomplish here? Let AP or MoP get interrupted. I can assure you the effects are much more devastating.
Immune to Burning: Destroyers and... Ruby Djinn? Both of these are in very select areas of the game. I'd say Hex Breaker does about the same for MoP Bomb. Regardless, you don't run MoP Bomb vs Hex Breaker and you don't run SF against Destroyers.
Added Armor vs. Fire: Rangers. Just as big of an issue for MoP via stances. Rigor Mortis takes from DPS.
Condition Removal: Extinguish and Cautery Signet. Anything else is going to be too slow. See also: 2 second recharge time.
Enchant Stripping: Still able to maintain about 100 Dps. Also, where is your Aegis? And no, blowing through 2 covers isn't common.

Cracked Armour: sure they ball for Weaken Armour, but the Necro casting Weaken Armour isn't casting the 200-DPS Searing Flames. Overall less damage for your team. I'm not saying you shouldn't have Weaken Armour; you clearly should especially since whoever is carrying Weaken Armour can carry other things (like heals). But thinking it'll always be there when you need it is foolhardy.
Interrupts: you haven't been using AP correctly. AP is rarely interrupted because every time you need to cast it (and it is 3/4s cast) you can cover it by KD'ing the monsters with an interrupt. Yes it gets interrupted but rarely. MoP can be interrupted but not much of a problem: trigger and AP and you have it back. Besides you cast MoP early in a fight, and you don't get interrupted if you lead with EBVAS. Searing Flames being interrupted is not inconsequential, because you just lost 15 energy for nothing + you lost some time with which to get the damage from Searing Flames. Remember, your energy is already on a knife-edge. Even deadlier is an interrupt on Fire Attunement.
Immune to Burning: there's nothing stopping you from running AP / MoP vs. Hex Breaker. Simple solution: burn Hex Breaker with another of your hexes. You can't use SF against Destroyers no matter what, however.
Added armour vs. Fire: not only Rangers (or Warriors and Paragons). Consider Armour of Mist, Shield of Regeneration, Winter (in EotN), etc. Rigor Mortis punches cleanly through stances. If you'd deal with the 1.75s time it takes to cast Weaken Armour, why are you worried about the 1.75s time it takes to cast Rigor?
Condition removal: any target which loses burning drops SF's DPS. Doesn't matter if it's one or two or ten. And SF already has lower DPS than AP / MoP.
Enchantment stripping: multiple enchantment strips are not uncommon. Gaze of Contempt, Strip Enchant and Chiblains. Soulrending Shriek removes only one enchantment, but Incubi come in enough groups to get past your cover enchantments.

What about Migraine and Arcane Conundrum? What about Diversion? What about Guilt and Mistrust? What about Protective Spirit?

As silly as this argument is getting however, this one is rather silly too:

Quote:

sacrificing half your skillbar and a high spec in all useful attribute lines is a pretty big thing.

If there's an Elementalist skill that did 300 DPS on its own but required Air Attunement + Fire Attunement + Earth Attunement + Water Attunement + Aura of Restoration to power it, would you use it?

PS: Have a screenshot of yourself doing Rand / Thommis HM with Searing Flames, including the /age? 2-man is fine, although it would be extremely embarassing if I beat your time 1-man ...